Zeitgeist 4: Beyond The Pale
Zeitgeist thinks it funny to make more movies, but I think its funny to hear Jacque Fresco expose Peter Joseph. Here are some audio of Jacque Fresco exposing Peter “Cult Leader” Joseph back in April:
“PETER JOSEPH IS CLUELESS”-Jacque Fresco:
“PETER JOSEPH SHOULD END THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT” Jacque Fresco:
“PETER JOSEPH DOESNT KNOW WHAT HE IS DOING”-Jacque Fresco:
Basically, the two benign fringe personality cults were fighting over money:
Here is a image of Peters Zombies watching his last lame movie: Zeitgeist Moving Forward:
Less than 60 days later, the Zombie cult broke with the Utopia cult and they now hate each other. More pictures of Zombies watching Zeitgeist Moving Forward:
“Im so bored with this cult its not even funny. Can you tell??”
There is no cult. Firstly the transparency of TZM completely opposes the definition, plus members are not separated from family, neither forcedly or coerced in any way.
Rummaging through the garbage of the people who put themselves out there the most isn’t “debunking” TZM.
If you’re bored of what you are doing, then quit because you output nothing constructive or even intelligently critical at all.
I agree Jossos. I dont understand why Jaque has a problem with Peter. He’s never claimed to want to take over the Venus Project, here’s merely presented it as a viable alternative to what we have going on today. An example of what we can accomplish if it weren’t for the paralyzing social structure that is currently in place. It’s more of an advertisement than anything. I never would have heard of the Venus Project if it werent for Peter Joseph…. >.>”
There is nothing about TZM that makes it remotely like a cult. His criticisms and claims are unfounded, and comments like “the damage has been done” and “zeigeist members have no life” further illustrate this point.
Peter Joseph Merola is collecting donations for this new film he’s working on now and there is no transparency at all, but with the Venus Project, at least you know how much they are taking from gullible people. The damage is done tho, they will battle each other with website designs, donations, films, achievements, etc. They will always be competing with each other now as they try to tell us that competition is bad lol. Since they are not together tho, you don’t have to worry about Zeitards defending Jacque Fresco bashing parents and wanting children to go to his summer camps encouraging separation of families.
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using ad homenim attacks to try to prove a your point does nothing but make you look incredible and uneducated. if you have any real evidence or argument agents the things that the zeitgeist movies are trying to educate people about and accomplish then by all means it is your given right to state them. And you should, because all view points have merit (even if I disagree with yours in particular). but all this “zombie cult” nonsense does nothing for you or your case.
im bored with the cult and the damage has been done. the zeitgeist is something to laugh at and joke about, not take seriously. I have accomplished my objectives in splitting/stigmatizing/discrediting the zombie cult. Im not to concerned with attracting cult members to my site, the title of my blog makes it clear I am not friendly towards the cult. In addition, I laugh when I reread what I write so its enjoyable to me, I care less what the zombies feel.
I’m getting bored too, they destroyed themselves.
And what is your solution to any of the issues facing the world? What’s that, I can’t hear you. Yet another simpleton spitting in the wind
Hows the Zeitgeist going to “SAVE THE WORLD”? Youtube videos? conspiracy? donation wars? begging spokesman? don’t be stupid, nobody serious supports the cause, its a bunch of losers, Peter Joseph himself says you are all poor and Mihaela Zeitgeist says Zeitgeist Members have no life. Jacque Fresco says zeitgeist Members know nothing!! You guys are really nothing more than clowns at the circus and performing acts of hilarious idiocy for the joy and amusement for all to see.
Jesus Christ, why do these retards still ask the same stupid question. WHAT’S YOUR PLAN!? My plan is not letting you guys anywhere near fixing anything. The status-quo sucks, but TVP will be a terrible disaster if implemented. But it will never be implemented because you’re a bunch of stoned unemployed kids no one cares about passing out DVDs. You wouldn’t know activism if it shat on your face.
And never knowing what could of been and not seeing that loving you is what I was tryin’ to do
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Chill the f*ck out people.Who gives a shit about your arguements, its your choice. All i know is that this world is fucked up and I like the logic behind the solutions of the zeitgeist movement or the venus project, maybe not all of them but its a start, if you don’t like it then explain clearly and logically in a way that makes damn sense, otherwise shut your stupid childish mouth. It’s all about awareness, to be aware that things could be better and that the system is corrupt! People need to stop acting like big f*cking babies and grow up. All you f*ck heads trying to “debunk” this or whatever need to stop sucking c*ck and eating your own shit, metaphorically speaking of course.
hmm last time i checked it was Zeitards who been getting f*cked in the a$$ by P.Joseph and eating all of his & Acharya S. BS and i dont mean this metaphorically. Another thing your not showing yourself to be in any way superior by feeding into the so called childish arguments. What is that quote i always hear Zeitards chant “be the change you wish to see in the world” easier said then done huh? If you agree with TZM nthen go off and built your uthopian society in a remote island and show the rest of the world. By the way a few suggestions for naming your own land how about FantasyLand? no better yet PeterTown? F*ck your Cult.
negativity only leads to more negativity, so have fun
What a bunch of slobberingly pathetic gossip some children are trying to stir up between two people that are doing their best to problem solve or disparaging current situation in society.
“Guess what he said!!!!” … “Now guess what he said in response. Yay!”
SORRY FUCKS THAT IGNORE THE ISSUES OF OUR SOCIETAL IMPROVEMENT TO GOSSIP SOME IRRELEVANT-14 YEAR OLD GIRL GIBBERISH ARE THE SAME PEOPLE THAT ARE TRAPPED IN DEBT & A MISERABLE LIFE BECAUSE THEY NEVER CONSIDERED THE LONG TERM CONSEQUENCES OF THEIR LAZY IGNORANCE.
It is either hard now and easy later…
Or
Easy now and hard later.
Your choice.
FUCK THIS RETARDED AUTHOR.
blah blah blah ive heard it all before, except unlike your religion “zeitgeist”, i publish and welcome criticism.
KUSH, THERE’S ONLY 2 OPTIONS: JOIN SCIENTOLOGY OR LET PSYCHIATRY DESTROY THE WORLD! THEY TOO ARE HUMANITY’S ONLY HOPE! DON’T FORGET SUN MYUNG MOON WHO WILL SAVE EARTH FROM THE GREAT SATAN AND BRING HEAVEN ON EARTH! NOT TO MENTION THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT, JOIN THEM OR ENJOY A TOXIC WORLD WHERE YOU’D NEED TO STEP OVER DEAD BODIES JUST TO GET YOUR CAPITALISTIC PACK OF SMOKES!
AND WE’RE NOT ANYTHING LIKE A CULT! JUST BECAUSE WE PRESENT YOU WITH A FALSE DICHOTOMY OF CHOICE AND USE EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION TO CONVINCE YOU WE’RE HUMANITY’S ONLY HOPE SO YOU’LL JOIN US SO YOU’LL DEDICATE YOUR LIFE TO OUR FRUITLESS ENDEAVORS SO WE CAN GIVE MEROLA’S EGO A CONSTANT DAILY HAND-JOB AND OUR HARD BORROWED MONEY FOR MORE SHITTY FILMS …. DOESN’T MAKE US A CULT!!!!!
Kush, that guy is into Sorcery:
http://thesourcerymovement.com
hard now and easy later
easy now and hard later
Hard now and hard later
easy now and easy later
I count four options. Fuck your false dichotomies.
If you got yourself trapped in debt it’s because you chose the “easy now and hard later” option. Now it’s time to pay the price of your choice.
You only have your own ignorant ass to blame for it.
Wow, what a very dumb-arse type of article. TZM has never been exposed as a cult, I think your idea of a cult is a bit tainted darling. Secondly, I’m pretty sure Jacque left on his own accord under some illusion that apparently Peter Joseph’s ideas were not in line with his own about an RBE.
Done, troll
lots of people think TZM is a cult. in fact, cult expert rick ross has declared zeitgeist a benign fringe personality cult. i only question the word “benign”. google “zeitgeist movement cult” so you can see there is widespread agreement zeitgeist is something of as cult. even recently, the occupy wall street movement has opened up about the cultish label zeitgeist attracts. thanks for commenting.
remember to define the word cult.
1.a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitnesscult.
3.the objectof such devotion.
4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a setof rites centering around their sacred symbols.
How are they a cult?
1. religious worship of love is wrong
2. admiring technology is wrong
3. devotion is wrong
4. a group being bound together is wroing
5. sacred ideology, sacred symbols is wrong
again, if zeitgeist is not a cult, then why does everybody outside of zeitgeist call them a cult? for example, the truth movement, anonymous, and occupy wall street all call zeitgeist a cult. could it be because cult expert rick ross was right? zeitgeist is a benign fringe personality cult
I think TZM can also be what is considered a “political cult” Here is a short quote that describes the word cult in the context of what became the Socialist Party.(i’m not sure in what country)
“The word cult is not a term of abuse, as this paper tries to explain. It is nothing more than a shorthand expression for a particular set of practices that have been observed in a variety of dysfunctional organisations.”
If you are interested you can read the whole thing here: http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/Back/Wnext27/Intro.html
I’ve been studying cults and cult psychology for the last 5 years and I’ve been telling these guys for the last year TZM/TVP isn’t a cult. However lately I’ve been reconsidering my position. As it’s been shrinking, it’s picking up more cult traits and becoming even more isolated.
I would point out that that’s a horrible definition of a cult, but let’s have some fun with it, shall we?
1.a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
You worship science as if it was dogma. You offer it platitudes and revere it without attempting to truly understand it with empiricism or philosophy. You praise the work of Jacque Fresco and Peter Joesph regardless of how unscientific his conclusions my land including supporting free energy scams and alt medicine scams. Every year you celebrate Jacque Fresco’s birthday with Z-Day and 9/11 to Celebrate the first film’s conspiracies with the Zeitgeist Media Festival.
2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitnesscult.
Jacque Fresco and Peter Joesph are very revered in this cult. Not to mention the people in the films like Jhhn McMurtry, Max Keiser, and Michael Rupert and those who were influential like Acharya S and Jordan Maxwell.
3.the objectof such devotion.
Magic robots and city designs are plastered everywhere over your guy’s YouTube channels and videos, picturs on your FaceBook…etc.
4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
Yup, RBE! POST SCARCITY OR BUST!
5.Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a setof rites centering around their sacred symbols.
I love how you all have TVP and TZM icons or “badges” on your pictures on Facebook and twitter.
Kool aid drinking aside, by that same definition all major political parties fall into that category, die hard fans of football teams would fall under that category as well, fans of the grateful dead who would travel with the band, the list goes on.
Is every fan of the idea of an RBE and perhaps likes the last two zeitgeist movies passively, as well as documentaries exposing shit that’s fucked up with the world all cult members then?
Where does the line get drawn? I mean, these are strong accusations so we must look at this closer.
You’re going to have to qualify that. Even as much ad dems praise Clinton and Republicans praise Reagan, it’s not nearly to the extent you guys do with Fresco and Merola. Same for sports, when is Wayne Gretzky day? And you’re right about The Grateful Dead, because most of them are too high to notice their music sucks.
The line gets drawn when people become so obsessed with the movement that they willingly forgo opportunities in live because of perceived and irrational fears by an egotistical narcissistic controlling assholes who are only doing it for money and power.
First, yes it is a biased BEGINNING to call the Zeitgeist movement a cult. Egoistic, misinformed, controlling… sure. Maybe. But not a cult. There is no rationale behind that, and it’s SENSATIONALISM. Was that just to get popularity for the site? That contradicts your very intention. I suggest you stop talking in terms of “cult.”
Second, I am not sure WHAT the disagreement between Joseph and Fresco is, but there are few points made that made completely LOGICAL sense:
1. The ONLY alternative Zeitgeist ever presented or could think of was the ideas of the Venus Project. Before that, Joseph was completely enamored with the current problems in the world, but no solutions.
Infact, that doesn’t make him any different to Michael Moore, who does the same thing. Social commentary.
2. I also would never have heard about the Venus Project if not for Zeitgeist, so I am very grateful for that.
But the main issue here is this:
OK, so Jacque Fresco feels that Peter Joseph is misrepresenting his movement by not giving him more involvement in making an ENTIRE film on the Venus Project. Hey, that’s goddamn sensible.
IS that the issue? Is Joseph trying to monopolise on what is being said about the Venus Project without allowing the BRAINS behind the project to make sure his IDEAS are being represented accurately? Then, yes, there is a problem.
But it comes down to this – Peter Joseph or not – I wish SOMEONE would focus on making an in-depth documentary on the Venus Project by working closely with Fresco. That’s the sensible solution here.
And I do have a feeling that Joseph may be letting a little fame go to his head – and his ego. But there is nothing cultish going on here, so be reasonable, not sensational.
“First, yes it is a biased BEGINNING to call the Zeitgeist movement a cult. Egoistic, misinformed, controlling… sure.”
I guess it’s not biased if you admit to it being cult-like already.
“Maybe.”
There’s no maybe lol.
“Was that just to get popularity for the site? That contradicts your very intention.”
I have no clue what that meant.
“I suggest you stop talking in terms of “cult.”
Suggestion ignored.
“Infact, that doesn’t make him any different to Michael Moore, who does the same thing. Social commentary.”
Yeah, they aren’t different. Michael Moore complains about the one percent in OWS protests being worth 50 million dollars himself and Peter Joseph Merola complains about how the Venus Project collects more money from people that are poor but finds it okay to collect from the same people he was defending for his 4th film. You’re right, they are both hypocrites. It’s a donation war and they are against money ? LOL
“OK, so Jacque Fresco feels that Peter Joseph is misrepresenting his movement by not giving him more involvement in making an ENTIRE film on the Venus Project. Hey, that’s goddamn sensible.”
No it’s not, a whole film on the Venus Project would have been extremely lame, more lame than Z3.
“And I do have a feeling that Joseph may be letting a little fame go to his head – and his ego.”
They both are egomaniacs.
What are you so afraid of that you have to see the worst in things?
All I see is people passing around donation jars for more movies that won’t do a damn thing for anyone except boost the egos of Jacque Fresco and Peter Joseph Merola, cycle bullshit, I’m afraid to see more people being taken advantage of and wasting their time on something not realistic.
Alright. I can accept that. But why not spend this intensity and this energy with which you give your heart to this idea – why not use that energy to point people in a better direction? Even leaving Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco asside, if you just have a basic problem with the idea of a resource based economy, then present what you think is reasonable – spend this amazing energy on that! It would be far more worthwhile.
Right now, it’s like you have become a slave to Joseph and Fresco by being such a critic. Why not leave them behind with the dust?
In other words – the best way that people forget an old idea is when they find a new one. IF you really want to stop people being taken advantage of – present them an idea that EMPOWERS them!
Your idea itself will demonstrate the irrationality of a resource based economy. It would be more powerful than simply attacking a resource based economy idea head on.
In other words – people may have questioned and debated the validity of Newtonian physics for the 500 years that followed… but that idea had caught a hold of the human psyche so fast nothing could shake it.
But when Einstein proposed a brilliant idea, it made Newtonian physics irrational in comparison – it wasn’t a Universal anymore.
Or in very simply -
It’s sunday and everyone wants to have a good time. They are all trying to decide where to go. If you just say, “no I don’t want to go there, no, not there either,” they are going to end up choosing something and you won’t like it. But if you tell them where you want to go and explain why it would be the best choice, now they have something to imagine… to make true.
I think if people were more self sufficient, it would be far better than begging for a central computer to do everything for them.
“Even leaving Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco asside, if you just have a basic problem with the idea of a resource based economy, then present what you think is reasonable – spend this amazing energy on that! It would be far more worthwhile.”
I think it’ll be another failure just like this, especially when they realize that a RBE won’t have the scifi vision like the Venus Project presents.
“Right now, it’s like you have become a slave to Joseph and Fresco by being such a critic. Why not leave them behind with the dust?”
I did:
http://thezeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/2011/07/31/im-taking-a-break.
“They are all trying to decide where to go. If you just say, “no I don’t want to go there, no, not there either,” they are going to end up choosing something and you won’t like it.”
When TZM presents RBE as a global solution, then you can see they are already trying to do the thinking for us instead of seeing if what they are proposing will actually work if they think their system is totally new and different from any other system ever tried. That makes them dangerous alone. Jacque Fresco said that fascism is when others do your thinking for you, so, with that said, all I see is a system of control being replaced with another:
For instance, the hippie movement of the 1960′s-70s didn’t work. They tore down capitalism, but capitalism just found a way to sell themselves to the hippies because the hippies didn’t propose any alternative.Their alternative was Individuality, each person is unique, and no one will be “STANDARDIZED”, so they boycotted the standardized products being manufactured. This gave birth to postmodernism: “everyone’s opinion is valuable.” While that kind of thinking does have it’s virtues it also sells a false sense of democracy. Now what capitalists did was realise that they need to be making millions of unique products to appeal to this new kind of “individuality” – you can blame the hippes for the thousands of different kinds of clothing we have, the thousands of types of mobile phones… and the waste produced as a result.
See “The Century of the Self” documentary – its incredibly incisive!
My point is, they always find a way to turn you into a consumerist machine to keep the wheels churning – “to do the thinking for us” –
So the only real approach to this mess is to think about the kind of environment that is CONDUCIVE to the growth of the human spirit!
You know what? To me, that’s the saddest thing in the world. People suffering from starvation is very sad. But to me the root case of it all is when people are not given the opportunity to make the very most of their own potential. Nothing is as tragic. Because it is the slow death of a mans spirit, not his body.That’s what I want to fight against.
So – all of this leads to ONE question – what kind of environment would be conducive enough to ACTUALLY allow people to think for themselves?
Definetely it would have to be a counter-culture – because this would be a paradigm shift between two completely different states of mind.
In other words, the issue here revolves around an accurate understanding of human motivation and if we exist in a social structure today that PARALLELS true human motivation, or is it one based on outdated ideas…
Have you seen this?
When I’m given Zeitgeist material that I haven’t reviewed, I usually review it and comment, but I haven’t watched this four hour movie you put up and not sure if I should waste my time doing so since you also posted the other one which is odd, because someone pointed out to me on facebook, almost a year ago that in it, it says @ 4:45 that money in fact is a motivator. So to answer your question, yes, I watched that and find the Zeitgeist Movement even more cult like when they routinely pass this video out to people to watch as if it supports their RBE position, it doesn’t.
Oh hold on a sec here. I believe we have a misunderstanding. I’m not a member of the Zeitgeist movement. I’m only interested in the more critical questions. If you have bias against the videos, that’s fine – that pales in comparison to the urgency of the actual questions about empowerment -
And by the way, the RSA on motivation makes it clear that when it’s any kind of autonomous job, then money works as a fantastic motivator – but if it involves using the faculty of the mind to innovate, money is shown again and again to fail -
But the past that truly empowers us is our faculty to question, to learn, to grow, to innovate, to come up with our own ideas (which very few people WORK to do because they are bombarded with so much consumerism and marketing on HOW to think). When that faculty to innovate, to be creative, is what truly drives us, then money becomes redundant, irrelevant, in considering the kind of environment where ALL of us can think for ourselves.
That’s what you and I both want. That’s why you started this blog – because you cared about humanity enough to want to warn them to not get brainwashed. To think for themselves.
I want to make one thing very clear:
The ideas of a resource based economy are older than Fresco.
IF either Fresco or Joseph want to have control over these ideas, monopoly over these ideas – which this page strongly provokes – then they are egoistic. More than that, the hilarious bit is, it goes completely AGAINST the ideas that Fresco is proposing – an economy with no government, with no intellectual property rights, with NO OWNERSHIP. They do not own these ideas. Fresco seems to want to be seen as the “founding father” of the Venus project, maybe he is envisioning a memorial in the center of the capital city in his model. That’s foolish, but I will forgive him that because he brought forth some fantastic ideas -
And that’s the main point here – we want an empowered society where nearly EVERYONE is coming up with groundbreaking ideas on how to co-exist better. Not just Fresco. People love to create and innovate not for money, or credit, but for the invigoration of it, for the purpose it provides, the growth. One of the lies that has been mass-marketed to zombify people in general is that ownership and money is the fundamental motivator for a society. I believe in the coming years more and more striking evidence will emerge to show how irreversibly inaccurate that is.
As a friend recently said to me, with admirable even-headedness when I brought up the topic of Joseph and Fresco’s fight, ” Sounds like some good old EGO is showing its face here somewhere. Its a pity but inevitable. Lets not let it get in the way of the content, message and work done so far, by Zeitgeist and others…..new people will appear if need be.”
Its the ideas that are important – not who owns them… ideas are collective things, to be shared. One of the things holding the world back so much is that we protect our ideas so much that we begin to become senile. Maybe that’s what happened to Fresco.
Okay, I watched it, I don’t see anything wrong with variety in products and expressing your individuality, but when individuality is only focused on politicians based on their personality and people don’t try to vote them in because of their policies, then that’s a major problem which it transitioned to on part 4. I agree with that:
As far as waste produced, I think people should be smarter about how they should get rid of electronics overall:
http://www.gazelle.com
If only people heard about companies like this and can manage of take out hundreds of tons from landfills every year.
“One of the things holding the world back so much is that we protect our ideas so much that we begin to become senile. Maybe that’s what happened to Fresco.”
2008 at the age of 92: “Jacque Fresco is a fucking genius, Zeitgeist: Addendum kicked ass!”
2009 at the age of 93: “OMG! He was awesome on ZDAY with Peter Joseph!”
2010 at the age of 94: “Wow look at him go with the world tour!”
2011 at the age of 95: “Senile Bastard!”
LOL
Fresco makes a good point: “Peter Joseph makes films without consulting us, and I believe in co-operating together on films. He also wanted to make a film on the Venus Project. He can’t do that, he doesn’t have enough information. And we said, ‘how about working together on this?’ He says, ‘I like to work it alone.’ Well, how can you share ideas in that kind of situation?”
I just wish someone would get involved with Fresco and make such a documentary on the Venus Project, because it would be extremely useful.
One thing that Peter Joseph said made sense though – the purpose of the Zeitgeist movement isn’t to take over the Venus Projects ideas – it is to tirelessly promote the very idea of a RESOURCE BASED ECONOMY on a broader level so that more people start thinking in that direction. He feels the idea of a resource based economy isn’t an exclusive property of Jacque Fresco (property is counter to Fresco’s entire vision to begin with). He feels it is a fantastic idea and starting point to really encourage thousands of people to investigate options in that direction. That’s a fair point.
I think this is one big misunderstanding between the two groups due to ego.
Horseshit. Z2 and Z3 might as well been full movies about TVP. Fresco whines about Merola showed his work and not gave him any credit which it total garbage. THat old haggard swamp hoobit is all over the goddamn movie. Now he changed his tune in the last Q&A the other night (http://www.tvpactivism.com/en/news/tvpseminars) to say that all PJ did was point out the problem and never gave any solution which completely contradicts his previous grievance. Fresco is just a bitter old senile crank and before he was senile he was a fear porn peddler. It’s really no wonder why Merola chose TVP as an answer to all the world’s problems, they both are fear porn peddlers. In his Larry King interview (Back when Larry King was a nobody I should point out) Fresco said the world would have “total environmental destruction” in 1999 and mass starvation in 1981.
“I think this is one big misunderstanding between the two groups due to ego.”
The ironic part about this is in your Bibl… I mean “Orientation guide,” it goes on about how we should eliminate our egos for the betterment of society yet your leaders can’t put their egos aside for 10 minutes to work together for the betterment of society because they want to fight over their e-peen size.
” it goes on about how we should eliminate our egos for the betterment of society yet your leaders can’t put their egos aside for 10 minutes to work together for the betterment of society ”
Exactly right. I completely agree. Which is want to question if even leadership is necessary for a viable solution.
After all, we want people to think for themselves – but democracy IN ITSELF doesn’t do that. Democracy will only work in a situation where everyone is empowered enough to lead themselves. We do not exist in such a situation at present.
It’s because you can’t change human nature.
Thus, TVP is not viable.
Why so pessimistic? In other words – you can only understand the limits of the possible by trying to go past them to the impossible.
At one time everyone believed the world was flat – that was the limit and you’d fall off if you went past – well, they HAD to go past it to find out if that was true.
Same way here – you are basically saying we are all meant to crawl around on the dirt (as a metaphor), and that’s not a possibility, that’s a goddamn damnation you set for yourself.
And if someone in that crowd of crawlers suggests – maybe we can stand up? <– to consider that possibility is much more invigorating.
There’s a difference between that and this:
No one tested the world being round at the time people thought it was flat. When it was tested only then did people finally come around to accepting it. Only the zealots and fringe people continued to hold it was still flat.
We tested a no-money system and and it was devastating. Now only zealots and the fringe still think it’s possible.
The only thing I’m saying is there’s a million and one economic proposals on the table, yours is one of the worst.
“We tested a no-money system and and it was devastating.” <— But did we, really? I am not talking about Socialism, or Communism. Those were incredibly off the mark, and nowhere close to what I am even suggesting. No, a resource based economy along the lines of what I am thinking of has not been tested.
I am very willing to discuss this.
In other words, to change the environment, governance and social structure into something far more conducive and empowering for each and every individual, it has to start with a shift in state of mind – a complete shift in how we view and approach the world.
I think this is what most NGOs MISS. They try to change infrastructure, but the people remain unchanged in their thinking. So we proceed with great resistance, and often give up, believing mankind to be violent by nature and unchangeable – without even considering if perhaps that violence is part of a SPECIFIC state of mind and not actually a universal statement about human nature itself. Too many assumptions when it comes to human motivation, and I want to strip it down and start over, recontextualising a more wholistic picture.
“The world as we have created it is a process of our thinking. It cannot be changed without changing our thinking.”
… Albert Einstein
Yes you are talking about socialism and communism. Saying you’re not isn’t a logical argument.
Communist, Marxists and Socialists have been repeating this banter of changing human nature since the beginning of time and all attempts have failed, miserably. Why? Because man is not a blank slate.
Secondly, A money-less economy is impossible.
Summary of Leninism & Fabianism…
Collectivism is the concept that government is the solution to most of our problems. A collectivist is a person who believes that solutions come through government action and through coercion using laws. Sacrifice individuals or minorities for the greater good of society.
Collectivism exists today in two forms: Leninism and Fabianism.
Marxists are idealists. Theoreticians.Marx’s theories of Communism were, “Workers of the world unite, throw off the chains of your Capitalist exploiters. Recapture control of the means of production. Unite against war and racism. From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.”
But no openly Communist country in history was ever taken control of by Marxists. They were taken over by Leninists.
Leninists are leadership and organisation orientated. Activists. The ones that go out and make it happen. They believe in Lenin’s ideas – that we must have organisation, structure, discipline, communication, training, leadership. He created a fighting force.
It was this fighting force that took over countries. Lenin taught that Communism is a vision for the future (when mankind is perfected and the state would wither away) – instead he was establishing what he called Socialist Republics.
Lenin said, “Before anything, do whatever you must do to achieve and maintain power. If you come to power, then you can afford debate, because you can shoot anybody who disagrees with you.” Lenin used Marxist ideas as a front, a marketing ploy to inspire the public.
Lenin used Art of War’s strategy of feigned retreat in politics by appearing defeated to the Capitalists, louring them with ideas of free-market. Once they have built up their infrastructure and industry again, they return to their old premise of hating Capitalism.
They’ve done this over and over again in history, and when you see a piece on the news declaring, ‘Break up of communism,’ it just means they’re at it again.
Lenin sent communists into non-communist countries under the pretense of being strongly anti-communist. They purposefully formed anti-communist organisational fronts to lead an opposition as social democrats. All for the consolidation of power.
Social democrats talk about open markets and freedom of speech, but the police state doesn’t change.
The branch of communism that is perhaps the least known in the western world is Fabianism.
The Roman general named Quintus Fabius was famous in history for defeating his enemies by wearing them down with delay tactics and refusing to make a frontal engagement. His name was chosen symbolically.
Fabians objected to Leninists, “You’re trying to create a new world order through force and violence and quick revolution. That’s the wrong way. The proper way is patient gradualism. We will INFILTRATE our enemy’s system, their institutions, corporations, and we’ll gradually convert the world to international socialism (also collectivism) in that fashion.”
Dragging it out? Sounds like Congress.
The symbol for the Fabians is the turtle – slowly but surely. Operating in stealth mode, under the radar.
But both Fabianists and Leninists agree on collectivism – New world order needs strength, military, money. All they are fighting about is who is going to have the best jobs in that World Order. Who is going to have the power.
Fabians are the bigger threat because they specialize in countries which have developed parliamentary systems. Where people are used to voting in their own “dictators.”
But Leninists seem to specialize in countries where Self-rule is not expected. Third world countries, for instance, where people are used to dictatorships.
These are the two factions that dominate the world today. Communism doesn’t really exist.
Now – this is NOWHERE near the sort of model I am talking about or proposing. If you want to call the ideas I am trying to put forth as Communist, then you are terribly mistaken. I am talking about how we can have no government at all – what the possibilities are to have a self-empowered society. And I am serious about it. My interest is the VERY OPPOSITE of world order. It’s more based on Spiral Dynamics and Ken WIlber’s theories on an integral vision.
You’re flat out wrong. Communism in all of it’s flavors aims for a classless and money-less and property-less society. Just because it’s not Leninism and Fabian socialism doesn’t mean it’s not communism. It is, because those are just 2 of many forms of communism. With that said, Lenin may of been a prick, he still had the identical goals as TZM. Your argument doesn’t even address the fact that RBE = Communism with robots. You’re just trying to derail it by talking about scale and implementation which is irrelevant.
Check this website for further info:
http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/
If the TZM’s goal is gaining power through force and violence, then sure they are Leninists – oh, I’m sorry, Communists. If the TZM’s goal is gaining power to control population even through coercion, then they are communists.
I am talking about actually finding a way to empower people to think for themselves. Communism does not allow that – it may in idealism, but it doesn’t when practically applied. Therefore, your example of a resource based economy being tried before and failing is completely NOT what we mean by a resource based economy. Communism doesn’t allow people to thrive, to have voices of dissent, to encourage debate, opposing views – but more than any of that – it doesn’t allow people to express themselves through art, it doesn’t allow people to have a sportive competitiveness, be intuitively artistic, self-exploratory. It does not allow for individuality.
Communism standardizes people. You have obviously never lived in a communist country. I know people who have. They are given jobs they don’t want to do and an education that doesn’t encourage free thought. People who have grown up in communist countries KNOW it is NOT a resource based economy at all.
Pls go and see the world with your own eyes.
That’s still irrelevant; you have the same goal; a classless, moneyless, property-less society. You should learn what the hell you’re espousing. It is exactly what the utopian socialists and communists (Leninists included) are working towards. RBE is just a romanticized end stage of communism. Besides, TZM and TVP don’t have a transition plan. Fresco says he has one but refuses to release it because he’s selfish and doesn’t want to share. (SWEET IRONY)
It doesn’t matter if you want to call your system communism, socialism, RBE, resource based economic model, a ham sandwich with Gouda or Roboutopia; it is impossible without prices.
Yes, TVP don’t have a transition plan. That’s what I am working on. And you don’t know it won’t work without money because it hasn’t been tried.
But what’s terrible is the manner in which you spit out your words, caustic and acidic. Learn to respect people first, no matter WHAT their opinions. Be a decent human being first, before venturing to debate about what’s wrong with the world. Start with your attitude right here.
I have been patiently chatting to you, and all you have done is SPAT back at me. Its juvenile.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” – Francois Voltaire.
“And you don’t know it won’t work without money because it hasn’t been tried.”
Yes, it has. Sorry if you’re new to history but we’ve been there and done that. It’s very ugly. Examples:
(ff 4:00)
I’d like to add that the only thing juvenile it your attempts to conflate ends with means (i.e. Our ends are different than that of communism because we attempt to get there by different means.) and your inability to acknowledge with the issue I raised time and time that rational production and distribution of resources is impossible without prices and that has been demonstrated both in theory AND in in practice.
So go ahead and enjoy the circle jerk, because that’s all TZM/TVP is. They have done nothing to advance their cause besides worshiping Fresco and Merola and pushing conspiracy theories.
A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty… The true value of a human being is determined primarily by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. … We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive.
- Albert Einstein.
really enjoyed all those discussions, wonderful characters! jimjesus and revwithin. i commend revolutionwithin on your patience but it served mostly to entertain me. these guys are brainwashed and probably baptists so therefore not capable of rational thought. if we dont destroy our planet then in years to come this system (capitalism, facism, call it what you want) will be viewed as barbaric as most of us today view slavery. it is gauranteed that the majority of people live in misery. to not try to change this is crazy and stupid. we know people are hurting and we know we are destroying the world. tvp has great ideas but everything is in its infancy. it is still a good place to start. pj seems to have some self importance issue and jack seems to be losing his marbles but bless him, he’s what? 95 years old. i aint gonna be around at 95! they have both done a good job and zeitgeists money parts were important. i think the most important thing to remember is how long a transition from one system to another would take. it wasn’t communism that killed people, it was the transition, and in the case of cuba it failed cause of relentless sabotage from the u.s.a. if cuba is anything to go by then socialism works. they have a higher literacy rate than usa and the same life expectancy. without all the sabotage it could be a real paradise there but that is what usa was most afraid of. some form of socialism would be part of a transition to a rbe. i know that terrifies you americans! the simplest start would be capitalism with a central banking system that atleast provided the state with interest free loans. by the way i don’t believe for a second that you guys are so angry with zeitgeist because you are concerned for your fellow men. seems far more likely its cause you feel threatened or that your precious jesus was all insulted in the first part of the film. face it if your mother or your big brother had told you that jesus wasn’t real anymore along with santa then you’d be a non believer, you are stuck at a stage of infancy believing in these bogus “faiths” and therefore incapable of adult conversation. “their is no prove that god doesn’t exist, you just have take it on faith!” woody allen.
Hi Tom,
A couple of guys from the Philosophy course at Mannipal and people with deep interest in thinking about world paradigms wanted to collaborate on discussions about possibilities. We’ve created a facebook group in this light, with a clear manifesto (3 Initiatives). Take a look. Feel free to add to the group whoever else you think might wish to contribute. There is no marketing agenda here – we’re just a group of people who want to tackle some challenging questions and would love some intelligent people involved! I’ve attached the link to the manifesto below:
http://vajrakrishna.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/the-possibility/
I disagree with the Zeitgeist cult; ergo I’m a Christian?
No I disagree with the Zeitgeist cult because it’s communist idiology and it’s centered around idolizing Merola and Fresco. It’s been 3 years and the only thing TZM has done is make Fresco and Merola more popular and put money in their bank accounts. Good job guys. Might as well just put a cross behind Merola and send out the collection plate.
why would someone who was about making money put movies online for free?
Why is someone who is so vociferously anti-money beg for it?
The same reason bands release their music online for free.
To gain exposure , build a “brand” and then go on tour and make money off of ticket sales and sell merchandise.
Somebody going on the lecture tour can make thousands of dollars for a single appearance and have his transportation and hotel rooms paid for. If the Zeitgeist Media Circus hadn’t have been a big flop he could have made $20,000 for one weekend.
There’s lots of money to be made in giving away stuff for “free”.
alright then, evil scum then. shame though cause it was fun imagining a different world. it was also fun becoming educated about money and central banks. does seem kinda low intelligence to leave things the way they are. surely no other way could be worse. wait! one last idea, hows about some form of socialism and we built everything we need for a recource based economy. may take a long time but everyone will be employed.
I dont want to be “employed”, ever.
alright, deployed then!
the idiot that is wasting there time giving a bad rap to peter joseph or for the many reason they can dispute is just the clear example of the sick society we really are. if we put as much effort to work together to educate are selfeves but no we destroy that hope, that possibility, by trying to be expose, refuet , for what ever self ambitions self fame etc. really this no more the same garbage as to tune to fox no news or to listening to bill o reilly, shaun hannity, just mediocre people that talk patriotic but are the cowards that missleading the people. which just serves to be suck on stupit thinking of the past & most people will go back & hope & pray that the donkey or the elephant will save me, give me a good job. are you just plain stupit did we not research politicans inslave people do not create jobs, has it not been proven that america is a few moments from being history. when that time comes just make sure you write down the name of the idiot who publish this going back to stupitity. i know i did! its good to bring awarness to bring knowledge information should be free! obviously this idiot is trying to divide us from working together. peter joesph and countless others bring awareness to what is really happening and what is going to take place. if the new deffence bill written by bankers to detain american citizens with out charges, with out trial, and disappear you from the face of the earth has not woken you up im sorry but i dont know what else will your just a threat to human society and you want people to remain ignorant.
the idiot that is wasting there time giving a bad rap to james kush or for the many reason they can dispute is just the clear example of the sick cult tzm is. if we put as much effort to work together to educate are selfeves but no we destroy that hope, that possibility, by trying to be expose, refuet , for what ever self ambitions self fame etc. really this no more the same garbage as to tune to rt and msnbc or to listening to jeremy rifkin , maoistrebelnews2, just mediocre people that talk teknocommoonism but are the cowards that missleading the people. which just serves to be suck on stupit thinking of the past & most people will go back & hope & pray that the robots or the compooter will save me, give me free stuf. are you just plain stupit did we not research conspearacy theists inslave people do not create robots, has it not been proven that tzm is a few moments from being history. when that time comes just make sure you write down the name of the idiot who publish this going back to stupitity. i know i did! its good to bring awarness to bring knowledge information should be free! obviously this idiot is trying to divide us from working together. econumists and countless others bring awareness to what is really happening and what is going to take place. if the new deffence bill written by a.i to ban peopel from teh fourms with out resins, with out appeel, and disappear you from the face of the internets has not woken you up im sorry but i dont know what else will your just a threat to human society and you want people to remain ignorant.
^^^ this is how you sound to people in Realworldistan.
Here’s some tips:
1. Learn to spell and capitalize first words of sentences and proper nouns. Some minor spelling errors and grammatical mistakes are fine, but this will go a long way in helping others think you’re not some deranged lunatic. I’m not much of a grammar Nazi, but FFS how do you explain shit like “are selfeves?” O-U-R-S-E-L-V-E-S
2. Stop with the Fox News shit. It’s cliche and it’s retarded. Yes we know Fox is biased, bust so are all the other networks. Especially MSNBC and (Zetiard favorite) RussiaToday which is run by the Russian government. (State propaganda.) Besides, not everyone who disagrees with TZM is a wingnut or a conservative.
3. Stop with the non-sequitur arguments. Because Americans have central banking issues and civil rights violations doesn’t mean we need an RBE. That does not follow.
4. Peter Joseph Merola devoted most time to his movies an debunked conspiracy theories and *NOT* RBE shit.
5. You know why TZM/TVP is losing steam? Ever wonder why it’s never hit the national dialog? It’s not some vast conspiracy. It’s because it’s supporters are vile ignorant shitheads who piss people off.
RT = Russian State Propaganda.
TZM is just a rehash of Marxism, they make perfect bedfellows.
I’m posting a comment on here. Lulz. Have I won the argument yet?
You’re not going to possibly win one without one.
It’s all about winning and losing.
Obviously since Peter Fresco thinks he can put anyone in a “fetal position” in a debate.
Like I said, wow, I’m experiencing a fucking value shift.
“Debate or debating is a method of interactive and representational argument” Do you think science is a dabate or a discovery of what works and what does not?
That quote didn’t come from me. Also, Peter Fresco is not a scientist, he’s an art school dropout.
“That quote didn’t come from me” I mentioned the meaning of the word debate, “he’s an art school dropout.” I know that, yet it’s important to focus on the validity of information despite someone’s certificates. I’m a certificate in nothing, take everything I say with the grain of salt.
“I mentioned the meaning of the word debate”
You said dabate, I don’t know what a dabate is.
“I’m a certificate in nothing, take everything I say with the grain of salt.”
Thanx for sharing that.
“Thanx for sharing that.” Of course I take everything anyone says with a grain of salt. Certificates are bits of paper, do you assume just because someone has a certificate that now they’re completely right about everything in their area of study?
Apparently Peter Fresco did, I mean, you did watch Z3, he was desperate to show people with credentials.
Besides, didn’t you listen to what Peter Joseph Merola said on his last radio show ? He said if he went to the Dentist, clearly that Dentist would know more about teeth instead of him and would be trusted because of that, he would be the authority in that field he said.
My favorite thing mentioned in first Z movie was that there is no democratic or republican way to build an airplane. This can be applied to just about anything there is no ___ or ____ way to _____. There is merely the best way it needs to be done. It does matter if PJ or JF said it or if any of you did. This whole site is more concerned with who is smarter or who thought of things first then actually looking at what is presented and how it needs to be implemented. I am not a “Ztard” or Utopianist or anything of the sort, I simply see that the world has problems and going in any direction other then the current one would probably be a good thing. Hopefully this was food for thought at least. have a good day.
“there is no democratic or republican way to build an airplane.”
I agree, it’s a good thing politicians don’t make planes.
Yes there is. One has a elephant sticker and the other a donkey. I prefer the one with the yellow and black ‘V’ though.
Whats with the top of this site THIS IS NO CULT WHO IS SAYING THIS Bull SH*T
This blog has some extremely interesting and important points on both sides, proper debate is perhaps the most important thing when considering how to ‘get it right’ with the world in which we live. Although it is a hard thing to do, one should refrain from letting emotion and insult come into their arguments.
Throughout this blog I have seen you call each other ‘idiot’, ‘juvenile’, accuse the other of being ‘brainwashed baptists’ (tom), or claim that the other is blindly following Peter Joseph/Jacques Fresco. As a result, the debate here has swung from enlightened to mere squabbling, and it’s funny because we all of us only want to make the world a better place.
Leave your ego out of it, you’ll come to better solutions.
Revwithin, you have shown good patience in your debate but have been closed to the possibilities that a moneyless society may not be workable.
Jimjesus, it is good to question and interrogate ideologies, but there is such a thing as doing this to the point where you are counterproductive.
It may be too early to have a moneyless society, but it is definitely too late to be wasting any time insulting each other. Listen and learn, feedback is extremely useful when given and received properly.
All Peter J is doing is exposing a lot of things that are wrong with the world and whistle blowing. Covering things that the media would never! What is there to expose about TZM?
There isn’t so much to ‘expose’ about TZM as they just use TZM to mask their own country’s actions behind a group that they even-so claim is ‘not a threat’.
Once upon a time, I looked into anarchy. I had heard about TVP a few years back, and it utterly sickened me. Near the end of last year, I had reread what it stood for, and was drawn in by the simple anarchistic message it provided, granted it seemed masked by environmentalist terms. I thought of the position to simply ‘like’ the movement for just that small reason. After I reviewed this site, I came to remember one of the terms I had scoured through over the years called anarchistic-communism, commonly referred to as anarcho-communism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_communism
Let’s consider this man to be Merola’s metaphorical grandfather, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Galleani
Intentions match, and his followers had a nice little niche name known as Galleanists.
The movement itself started to look as bad as China in the long run, and they can promise the same Utopia-Buildings too, http://www.thecityreview.com/nuchin.html
It seemed to me that Fresco had ingeniously masked an Anarchist Communist Economy (or ACE, as I tend to refer to it now) as a generic term such as Resource Based Economy.
As for the question of an RBE, which was made by Mario Brotha at one point in his rantings, “I thought all economies are based on resources.” http://zeitgeistmovements.wordpress.com/2011/11/18/venus-project-launches-video-exposing-peter-joseph/#comment-2468
That they are, but referring to it with such a generic term, makes these sites look like this:
“The RBE is a bad idea.”
“Aren’t all economies resource based?”
“The RBE will fail.”
This mentality just points out that yes, Zeitgeist is a bad idea, but such incoherent ramblings just made you point out that Capitalism, as stated as being an RBE (we trade pieces of trees and metal as currency [environmentalist speak can quickly be derived]), that the current system of an RBE has failed as well. Can they provide a logical statement out of this? Absolutely not, because skyscrapers look like their idea of utopia, and we’re all pretty much sure they could make a mock-up video of Zeitgeist and show how Capitalists promised the same buildings, the same structures, but ultimately failed on keeping the rest of the so-called ‘promises’. Good job, every country now has a shiny building! (The only argument they even provide is ‘if’ the money they raised was to make this precious building out of the same slave-labor as the pyramids.)
They seem so obsessed over such-and-such got kicked out (almost every article has one comment on this) that they’re just starting to sound like Ex-TZM members with a bone to pick for them revoking their membership. TZM is Communism, and they’re just Capitalists. China’s getting the monopoly at the current point under Communism, and America’s failing under the idea of Capitalism. In the end, it just shows that their arguments are as empty as TZM.
“Communism is evil, but we’re so much better!”
Zeit-Heist is a corrupt movie industry like Hollywood. (without the SOPA/PIPA/ACTA tag-line)
These guys are… idiots opposing idiots without a sound reasoning behind it.
What needless bickering, I stopped at this horrendously coded WordPress skin. I’m sorry Mr. Author, if you were attempting to make a valid point, however senseless it may be. At least spruce up this place a bit.
Speaking of needless bickering, let’s throw poop about blog design.
Anyways, that’s the TVP scam in a nut shell:
Who cares about if Fresco’s can actually work in Realworldistan, it’s got pretty pictures and CGI. Kush debunks it?! pft, blue is a stupid color.
yo … kush … please post a foto of urself …. i need to see what the world’s most annoying c**t looks like!
p.s. I hope your mother dies in a freak yachting accident :-\
thank you sir!!!! thanks for visiting this site!!
HA!
my pleasure … here’s a poem for you …. x
your site is retarded
as is your mother
AND … your embarrassing Mario brothA
thank you sir!!!! thanks for visiting this site!!
A poem that doesn’t rhyme with bad punctuation, capitalization and grammar? Mario, I’m jealous I didn’t get one. .
oh wow! u guys totally showed me
imagine a poem with poor grammar! the shame!
(u stupid bunch of c**ts!)
Whoa, hey! Whats with the naughty words kid. Why the butthurt?
Km cow gilah
to the author of this site:
obviously you find the people who would find food for thought in the films of peter joseph so threatening that you refer to them as zombies and cult members.
what are you so scared of?
Im not scared of a world without war, money, hunger or competition because these seem to be the source of most people’s problems today and new solutions need to come to the surface because the old ideologies are the ones that got us all into this mess in the first place.
what people really should be scared of is the world continuing on its current course of being not only unable to provide for the needs of most people but also veiws people trying to change society into something that benifits the majority of people as being the enemy of the system when they attempt to find new solutions or ideologies to do so.
the time has come to stop leaving politics to the politicans.
the time has come to stop leaving the business of running the world to the businessmen and wall street.
someone steps up to the public with a different idea and so they must be shut down and stopped because they are some kind of cult leader leading the gullible?
new ideas might be the only ideas worth listening to anymore because the old ideas are the ones that got us all into this mess.
you dont seem to have any ideas of your own and all you do is put down those that are trying to come up with something more beneficial.
im more afraid of what is happening now to people than the phantom fears of what “might happen” if different people come along and try to really change this corrupt corpse of a society.
you have a right to express your opinion just like anybody else but you are saying that other people’s solutions are dangerous without offering any of your own.
I think youre just jealous of those people who have new ideas because you have none.
and because you have none please quit wasting everybody else’s time with thoughtless writing based on your own fear of a different future than the present we have now because the rest of us who know society (as we know it) has failed are looking to the horizon for new ideas and not old fears that critics without solutions seem to be possessed by.
calling something a cult doesnt change anything, youre trying to obstruct change because youre scared and thats all there is to it.
blind panic suffered by deer caught in the headlights of the car thats about to hit them because they are too paralysed with fear to move is exactly the mentality that is preventing needed solutions from coming to the forefront in the first place.
sorry, but your just a frozen deer staring into the headlights and the world will be ready to move on to something better without you.
its an honor to be called a zombie by a zombie.
you just cant handle the truth because the zeitgeist film series are adressing problems that are just too real for you to deal with.
go watch some cartoons or something and let the adults who give a crap about solving things discuss the serious issues of what to do.
your criticisms are empty and devoid of solutions because you have none, you are against TZM but on the side of nothing but the same old establishment status-quo view of things.
you are clinging to a dead society out of your own fear of the future which can be a better world than the one we have now.
you better move or that car is going to hit you.
good luck, and I hope you grow up soon.