Zeitgeist Members Continue to Get Brainwashed

VTV continues to control Zeitgeist members.

For some time there has been debate that the movement should switch to a system with no authority figures, no moderators, and no structure or hierarchy. This episode proves the science suggests that is not a wise idea.-VTV 

COMPLETE CONVO HERE:  http://www.facebook.com/tzmglobal/posts/154663137935943

Some people try to fight back against the Zeitgeist Movement, they want to think for themselves:

Stephen James Hanson I would rather set in place a system without authority, no human leader, no figurehead than one that endorses having a human dictator. The only dictator we need to answer to is nature. Any system that’s set up with human leaders is absolutely contradictory to what The Venus Project advocates.

VTV hiding as the moderator snaps back:

The Zeitgeist Movement Global ‎@Stephen James Hanson: “I would rather set in place a system without authority, no human leader, no figurehead than one that endorses having a human dictator. The only dictator we need to answer to is nature. Any system that’s set up with human leaders is absolutely contradictory to what The Venus Project advocates.” 

The Venus Project also does not advocate a situation where people are free to attack, or ridicule others to squelch debate. And when you are in a situation with no moderators at all, this will happen.

Others raise the issue as well:

Fayder Florez I’m a bit confused. Since when TZM has authority figures?. It has coordinators to help new people to get involved, and to manage certain projects at least temporarily, but not authority figures. As Peter Joseph said, “this is not a follow the leader movement”. Am I missing something?

VTV continued to bomb the followers with more control pep talks, his whole spill is that to prevent people from attacking each other, authority is needed:

The point is, that you cannot simply turn off all authority and expect everything to work out. The tendency towards seeking authority itself has to be dealt with. The tendency towards feeling that attacking other people to attempt to get them to socially submit to you has to be dealt with.

Soon, VTV gets attacked by his nemesis “Brandy Zeitgeist”, clearly VTV has been caught red handed by a Zeitgeist follower he can’t ban or block:

Brandy Zeitgeist ‎(Whoever is currently commenting under “The Zeitgeist Movement Global” is speaking as THEMSELVES, so if you are one of the page admins, please change the setting to comment as YOURSELF, under your name!) All of your “personal” comments/opinions in this thread (i.e. *I* suggest, *I* am unsure… etc.) are going out on FB as “The Zeitgeist Movement Global,” which makes absolutely NO sense to the people reaading it.)

People start realizing whats going on:

Daniel Sandoval Lol I get why jacque fresco left tzm on there own now your all doing your own thing changing it to how you see fit you don’t want a free an open society you want what we have now except your on top shame.  When someone is telling you how things are gonna be done then tell you your free an equal watch out. All I’m gonna say is tread carefully do you really believe your people can give up power once they acquire it.

At this point, VTV stops hiding since he has been called out and starts posting under his own facebook account.  He tries convincing members that Jacque Fresco supported hoarding them like the sheep they are:

Vtv V-radio‎@Daniel Sandoval Jacque Fresco does not advocate “no structure or authority” until much later. Point of fact, TVP wanted even more control and structure over how TVP was presented. What you are failing to understand is that authority does not simply vanish just because it is “unofficial”. In high school the “in crowd” seizes authority through ridicule and mockery of anyone who does not tow their line. They have no official backing to do this. But it happens. And will continue to happen until the values in question change. So the suggestion that Jacque left because the movement was too structured is silly. 

He keeps trying to brainwash members to view him and other members of the zeitgeist movement as authority:

We are proponents of intentionally engineering society so that positive behavior is encouraged, and negative behavior is discouraged with the goal of eventually being outright eliminated. The problem is, that some people within the movement come into it and want to say “Ok, we should have no coordinators or moderators….” and don’t realize that cannot be accomplished without destroying the movement unless it is done in the right way. And simply turning off authority is not the right way.

Members really cannot believe how blunt VTV is being about controlling them.  I guess they have never checked the many blog posts and forum data on Neil Kiernan Stephenson, the Zeitgeist Movement official slave driver or zombie herder:

Andrew Zeitgeist Green   So now we’re relying on the BBC to determine how the movement is organized? If I’m using the scientific method to eliminate methodologies that are unsustainable, I would immediately implement a theory that suggests that humans are not capable of ruling over other humans. There can be, there must be no hierarchy and no class levels of any kind. Who ever made this post does not represent the views of TZM and I would encourage them to continue doing their research.  omeone has already expressed to me that if this is the view of the movement, then they want nothing to do with it. I recommend we remove this Facebook page and direct people to the documentaries and TZM home page for future discussions and information regarding the views of the movement.

VTV believes Andrew Zeitgeist is illogical and irrational…..dammit just submit to VTV:

I do not mean to be rude. But it actually sounds like you do not fully understand the position of the movement. The movement does not and has never advocated the idea of simply turning off all authority figures and that somehow everyone will just “get along”. This movement does not advocate the concept of “spontaneous order” and the belief in it is not scientific. You are misunderstanding what the real issue here is. And that is that we have to address the environment to faciliate a situation where leaders/authorities etc are obsolete and unessacary. Not just simply turn off authority and expect everyone to get along. That is an irrational stance and not even logical.

The attack on VTV continues:

Milan Milovanovic ‎@The Zeitgeist Movement global, you need to consider what is said without any ego and contact the larger TZM group, if you have any affiliation with them. your place here should be strictly communicating TZM view. I have not read all of your posts so I can’t claim this must be done since i don’t have the whole story.

Bry N TJ: “I’m actually quite disappointed that ‘TZM’ (or whoever..) would post this..as the values in this movement seem to be more of a problem for the supposed ‘leaders’ of this movement than the individuals themselves, like you and me. Don’t get me wrong, I back the ideals of TZM. But I am truly getting tired of all this drama! The whole TVP/TZM ego bullcrap, and now this? That’s what I thought we were veering *away* from, we were being adults, we were evolving beyond the need to have money and to be controlled by our egos and to be so insecure as to say, “Well I have power over you” subconsciously or not.”

VTV responds how control and authority is needed:

You say you can “take care of yourself’ and you don’t need moderators. But when assertive personalities who use personal attacks to take control of a situation do so, are they abusing authority or not? Is a bully who is not in any way empowered “officially” abusing authority or not? 

These should be rhetorical questions. And my question to you is “What do we do when people do this?”

If your answer is “Well we don’t need moderators, everyone can take care of themselves” you are asking for a situation that would be an intellectual wild west. Being correct will be secondary to being able to psychologically attack your opponent in debate until they concede. 

So answer this point, as it is very important. Yes we don’t want abuse of authority from people who are “officials” in the movement. But does that mean that other people trying to take authority through those tactics that ruined the communes shown in the film are completely acceptable? 

How do we address them? Because without moderators, which they did not have in those communes either, there is no way to address them. They get to control everything, and eventually the organization dies. 

If you want to eliminate moderators, authority, etc. you have to be willing to take a proactive role in creating a community understanding that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated, not just because hurting other people to try and disguise your weak points is immoral, but because all it facilitates is lack of intellectual exchange.

Listen to VTV who cannot keep his quest for control a secret any longer:

However, derailing the conversation, or using fallacy to appeal to the audience that someone is losing an argument even if they are 100% right affects everyone. Even if it does not affect you emotionally when someone attacks you personally during debate, it will affect your standing with the people listening to the debate. And hence, will make your position look weak, even if it is not. This is what propaganda is all about. And when someone is actively trying to discredit you with people whom you are trying to convince this undermines communication in general. Whether or not it personally affects you is secondary. You retreating from the debate if it is in public is actually EXACTLY what that person wants. What if we are having a critical debate about movement policies? Is the answer for you to simply leave the debate and allow decisions to be made in your absence? By people who are now on the side of the person who chased you off? Your ignoring them can be perceived as weakness.  

If you do not see what he is doing then you deserve what you get.

Further discussion here:  http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/forums/topic/vtv-still-thinks-hes-in-high-school